Question on Inverter

Discussion in 'Connecting to the Grid' started by Bill Lawless, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. To start: I'm a Newbee...
    Got a very good understanding of a wind to inverter to grid setup. But here is my question. I saw an
    Aurora PVI 3.0 wind Grid Tie turbine inverter

    On craigslist for sale. It's a 3000w wind inverter. I looked up the specs and the DC voltage in ranges from 50-580v.. and at what they call full range 200-580v for optimal performance. But if you look at turbines like Windtura 750 it outputs 12 or 24v and some 48v. Are there different type of turbines that are more suitable for the Aurora grid tie?
    I see the Sun 1000w seams to be more compatible with WN Windtura. Is the difference hobbyist vs. professional? It does seam like the higher the voltage the better for obvious reasons like wire size, heat etc.
    Thanks much,
  2. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Hello Bill,
    Yes, the larger wattage turbines will produce higher voltages as well as yield much bigger power.You either have to go to a 2kw or higher turbine to achive to need input for the Aurora or use a smaller turbine like the WN and use an Outback 24v battery back up/ grid tie inverter. The other choice is to go to a non UL approved GTI which is in the Sun G class 1kw 22-60vdc GTI.
    The higher the voltage the more efficiant things become.
    I hope this helps.
  3. Andy R.

    Andy R. WindyNation Engineer

    Hi Bill, I have the Aurora PVI 3.0 grid-tie inverter and it does need a higher voltage to run. I only have a 72 volt windmill but a guy from Canada that sold me the inverter figured out a way to make it all work.

    If you want to, see my story.

    Anyway, the 12, 24, and 48 volt windmills are traditionally thought of for charging battery systems but as Larry mentioned above, lots of people are now using inverters like the "Sun G's" successfully which opperate from 10 to 60 volts.

    Bill Said:

    Maybe, but if you're putting watts back into the grid and saving some money, who cares. Probably the main concern is being "legal' of Illgal". My Aurora inverter is 1741 UL approved which allows me to have a "REAP" agreement and sell power back to the utility company and be 100% legal but my aggrement with my utility company cost me 792 dollars. Now I also have a "Smart Meter" which is digital and can and often is read by the utility company every other day, maybe once a day, and sometimes even twice a day. I know this because I went to the office and got a print-out of the readings. Whatever I'm doing they have the ability to know it but there's other people around here, (and I'm not mentioning any names LOL), who are "flying under the radar" with Windy's and such with Sun G's and making as many watts as I am at a lot less upfront costs.

    Stick around.
    leamywind1 likes this.
  4. Stealth mode all the way... :)
    I'm now collection my stuff, watt meters for both sides, SUN 1000W wind, dump load resistor.. check/check/check.. waiting on rectifier

    One more ?. Do I need to have a disconnect on the 3phase AC side, and should it short all 3 wires together to prevent free spinning?
    OK 2 ?'s Should I put a DC breaker into the GTI and how many amps breaker.. Trying to make sure I don't fry the GTI

    thanks much,
  5. Andy R.

    Andy R. WindyNation Engineer

    Bill, what kind of PMA are you going to be using?

    When you need to stop the turbine, some people say to "short" 2 of the 3 phase wires and some say to "short 3. At any rate I was advised to not short the wires at high speeds and was told that it would be similar to sticking a stick in the spokes of a bicyle. The best thing to do at high speeds is to hold the turbine back with the "dump load". Shorting out the wires is for when you're working on the turbine and trying to keep it from spinning.

    I can't answere the other questions too well. Larry?
    leamywind1 likes this.
  6. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Got it.

    The 3 phase A/C side, yes install a brake system with a simple switch. See the windy nation store for those. They short out the 3 phase A/C. However NEVER use it in a high wind situation. The brake should be applied before a huge wind event or when you are working on the turbine.

    DC fuse between the rectifier and the GTI, You can as it will not hurt. To size the D/C breaker/fuse open up the cover on the GTI and you will see a DC fuse in it already. Match your DC breaker/fuse to it. Personally I do not have a fuse between that part of the systems as the GTI does have one in it already but redundancy is always a good thing.
  7. TomT

    TomT WindyNation Engineer

    I have shorted mine out once at high winds. You are right . DO NOT DO IT.
    Hard to explain but it sent a shudder all the way thru the house. Like it was skipping till it finally slowed down. Have never tried it again
  8. Thanks much:
    On BRAKE: What if I use a 3 position switch, 1st sends the current to it's own dump load through a relay, and when it slows or stops switch it to full short?

    Where I'm at now, Just playing:
    Bench test using a car alternator, I tied wires off the AC 3 phase output, pulled it apart. Spinning it with a 1hp electric motor at approx 2000rpm.
    I get 27VAC between each phase with no load, 36V DC side of the rectifier no load.
    Hooked to my SUN 1000G (wind 20-60v) I get 23V 23A DC side of rectifier, And 466W on Grid side.. More then I expected, 528W into SunG and 466 W into grid. (88%)??

    OK Done playing, and a few ?'s
    Looking for a turbine?? Do I stay around the 750-800W range and use 1 SUN 1000G (20-60v) and a small 250W (10-30v) to capture some low speed stuff.
    Or go 1K -1.5Kw.. If I go for a 1K such as Windmax HY1000 you have to use 2 Sun 1000 GTI's.. Which seams to under utilize the GTI's for the occasional time it goes over 1000W.
    If I go 1500-1600W turbine with 2 1000W GTI's you would get a little better split or do you think 1600W would still go over 2000 w total??

    Anyway, been looking at:
    ALEKO 1500W $1100
    Missouri Raider 1600W $600

    and to stay with 1 1000w GTI:
    Windtura 750W $1000
    Missouri Raider 800W $400

    +'s -'s comments,

  9. TomT

    TomT WindyNation Engineer

    I really do not know . As I have not ventured up into that area yet.
    I am down a ton of money and just lucky I started a new job. Will take about three years to recoup what I have lost being unemployed. No more retail for me. So long after 35 years of doing it. I just started at a aluminum molding plant a few blocks from my house. Compared to non-existent retail jobs. Almost no travel time or gasoline to get there either.:)
  10. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Hello Bill, I can suggest a few solutions to your questions.
    The bigger turbine the better.
    Low cost for lots of power is a scam.
    Talk to owners for your choice of turbine first. Most dealers will sell you you anything.
    Low wind power start up (6-7MPH) is what you are looking for as that brings more constant low watts.
    Max RPM to achive rated power output should be no more then 900 RPM fro a 1kw or less.

    Fact: Most if not all micro turbines have not been dealer tested with the Sun G GTI's. They are only sold and rated for 12-24-48v battery charging.

    The WN 750 and the HY 1kw 24v both have been proven to be great small turbines. However if you are looking to make a lot of power for grid tie regarding KW hours several will be needed and depending on your site.

    The HY 24v 1kw 5 blade turbine works great with a 1kw Sun G wind rated inverter 22-60vdc input. However
    HY has come out with a new HY 1kw 24 and it has not been tested with the Sun G inverter. The older HY 1kw 24v has as I have posted my test results on here. The WN 750, I have not heard how it works with a 22-60v Sun G GTI as far as details. Combination GTIs work well with these two birds (250w 10-30v and 1000w 22-60v) See Tom's switching board to take that set up to another level.

    A car delco style PMA will over volt the Sun GTI 's before you ever get the rated power out of them. Those types of PMA's are not very good for a wind turbine IMO. Practical winds for generating wind power is from 8-35MPH, the car PMA type require higher winds speeds. 2000 RPM's is a lot of wind speed. Maybe doing a battery clamping system with the GTI may work but i have not seen anyone generate those claims of power yet from those types of turbines?

    I have posted on the forum there is a 1kw GTI (22-60 wind rated) with a steepness adjuster that may work for your choice of turbine. The power curve can be adjusted bit i have no idea how good this new GTI is. It aloso has a watt meter built into it. Cost is about $450.00

    You are looking for a turbine that has been proven from others or has some kind of certifications to back it up along with a good warranty. Of course this is all after you decide on what kind of power you want to generate vs your budget. I think that anything less then a 1kw turbine will not be of much help for most as most can only go up 40ft. Good luck with your quest for wind power. Please keep us posted.

    TomT likes this.
  11. Hi Larry, Thank much for the info...
    1st comment, I am not planing on using the Car PMA I was just doing some bench testing. Mine was not even a PMA just a regular alternator I energized the electro magnet core with 12vDC .

    Next, doesn't HY1k come in 24v and 48v.. Would the higher, 48v, be a better choice, cut the amps in half for wire size heat etc? Or is there more of a risk running over the 60v and dumploading(If that's a word)??
    Which make me ask, Can you just put a voltage regulator in line at 60v DC.. Would this increase the amps when the input side goes over 60v, or would the excess have to be dumped? Just thinking out loud...

  12. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Hi Bill,
    Thanks for responding. Sorry for the bible but here goes.
    Yes, the HY 1kw comes in 24v, 48v and now 110vdc. I can only tell you what I have had success with.
    I use the 24v version with two GTI's per turbine as I have 4, a 250w 10-30 and a 22-60v 1kw both DC inputs. This seems to be the best combination for that type of system/turbine as a whole. Hy has now come out with a 110v 1kw bird that can be grid tie using their own system meaning their own tested dump load controller and inverter. The inverter being a Ginlong. This is an out of the box manufactured tested warrantied system, which I am a big beleiver in. Out of that box systems that is. Now for us guys who have tested for the last four years trying to get to the point of simplicity I can you tell asIi discribed for what I have it works great. Its a pretty simple system and their is wiring diagrams on the forum how to install it. Remeber works great for me at my site. All sites are different. I have found over the years without wind nothing works and adding more stuff just makes it a money pit. As far as the higher voltage, yes high volt is king. High voltage is esier made in solar then in wind. Trying to hit higher voltages with small turbines still requires 10-12 MPH winds. We have found a way using 24v turbines like the WN and HY to utilize low wind speeds (using the two GTI's) but getting into the 48v models will be much harder to do as it also has to do with the correct RPM the turbine needs to make it's rated power. Constricting the turbine with the wrong GTI or battery bank can mean never getting good power out of it so its a huge experimental and costly learning curve unless it's already been proven. The larger units like 2 or 3kw and up make high voltage quick as they are wired that way to produce low amps and higher voltages like in the 3-500VDC range where the smaller ones again are more for battery charging (12-48v) so us using the China GTI's on these smaller turbines is very hard to predict what turbine is a good match. So far me and a few others are reporting just the WN and Windmax or Hy.No one else has come forward in details to varify another manufacture's turbine that works with these inverters. Nor has Sun G

    I think using a 48v turbine will go to over volt more then often if using the 22-60v GTI. The HY 24v gets up to about 100vdc with OCV. The 48v I would imagine 150vdc. Again, I have not tested the HY 1kw 48v model. However being at 48v you will need more wind to get power from it but that decision is based on your site of course. I also recommend that if you have very high winds, stick with a turbine that furls. Unfortunatletly there is no real guaruntee with using the China GTI's because they are never tested with any particular turbine, it's all a shot from the hip with them vs. a type of bird. I have had no issues with them and my HY's for what the system does. I mean i do not expect to get every rated watt but i have seen 85% of what my system can do. Bill, I am not a big believer in using any kind of regulators and gizmos on the system because it just more SH#@ you gotta test, wait for winds, and possibly keep replacing. Been there done that. That's why i am here to help people avoid all the BS, and pit falls. I like to help a guy or gal get right to having a working productive system regarding their budget. Kinda the old saying "set it and for get" let it do it's thing" It's to good to be true" Buying more blades, hubs, a new PMA, more magnets, less cogging ect. and all the other BS is a scam to keep sucking you in. Try to keep it simple as you can. 99% of the crazy idea's do not work anyway. LOL Most of what you see on Youtube is just aweful. A simple good small turbine like a WN or HY, rectifier, proper wiring, tower, location, fusing, brake, GTI, meter and AC hook should be all ya need in a nut shell. Of course any redundancy is always welcome too. My advice is if you are looking for a grid tie only system and your budget allows buy the grid tie Hy 1kw or larger, if no, then go for the HY1kw 24v as I have stated or use the WN 750 with furling and the same HY GTI system I am using. Remeber making power is not cheap. A wind turbine system that you can install for 600 bucks will give you zero power unless you are visiting the cabin twice a year. Again I am speaking of a system to generate kwh for your home not your shed nor not back up power.

    You will spend around 3 grand or more for a system that you will notice doing something for you again, provided your site has the wind. Check out some of my wiring diagrams using the Sun G China GTI if you already have not. They should give you a great idea of what I am talking about as far as a simplicity. Please also try to include a few solar panels in with your system. This will keep you making power as you will find having a wind turbine makes you wait for wind a lot more then you ever did before.LOL If you need further help down the road I can help you design a system for you using the HY or WN. You can always email me from my web site to talk about your installation personally.
    Good luck;)
  13. Thank much for the info: Any good ideas on where to buy Hy-1000.. Been doing some extensive online looking and getting quotes.. There are a lot of copies of the HY-1000 for cheaper money, but most likely junk... Also, a bunch of scams selling HY-1000.. And place with a high make up middle man???

    I also see Windmax HY1000 and HYEnergy HY-1000 are these the company/product?

  14. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    LOL. Yes there are to many scams with wind turbines these days. Man it's just unbeleivable. Either contact Robin Li at HYE or go to the web site provided. This web site delivers in like 5 days. Get it from HY and it might be less but may take a month to get. That is where I bought all of mine (HYE/ Windmax) I am buying another one from them as we speak.
    If you call them, tell Jon I sent you or just order on line.
    Hope this helps:)

  15. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

  16. I hate bombarding you with a ton of ? But you seam to be the ANSWER MAN....

    The HY1000 seams to come with a charge controller which also controls there electromagnetic breaking:

    1. Electromagnetic speed limitation:
    Controller will monitor the wind generator rotation through the wind generator output voltage and frequency, and will timely control wind generator rotation by generating reverse reluctance torque if necessary, according to different wind conditions and battery status. Electromagnetic control features quick response, high reliability and therefore ensures the entire control system to be highly reliable.

    I'm using this as a grid tie only, no batteries. Is this controller thing still needed for the breaking? and how would it work/hook up with grid tie only? It seams like over voltage and the dumpload should do the same/similar thing??

    thanks again, in advance..
    Oh yeah, and there is this from magnet4less site under there manuals tab:
    HYenergy Wind & Solar Hybrid Charge Controller
    12v and 24v Models
    Warning: None of HYenergy off-grid wind turbines can be grid tied without battery.
    Please don’t try to connect off-grid controller to inverter directly. Connecting off-
    grid controller to inverters may pose risk of firehazard and have windturbine/electrical failure.
    Controller is for battery charging only. Controllerfor HYenergy wind turbines canonly directly connect to battery. You should neverconnect controller directly to anyother devices such as inverters. Connecting controller to inverters or other devicesthan battery may pose risk of fire hazard and havewind turbine/electrical failure.
  17. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Every low watt/low volt turbine (under 1kw) is not rated for grid tie. Regardless of what that states I have been doing it for 4 years. If you want, use a battery bank and then divert the excess energy to a China GTI or use a battery bank and buy an Outback system which is the top notch way to go. All in for about $3,500.00 with batteries DIY. If you are looking for a low budget system as most do use a China GTI.
    Yes, The GTI has a dump load controller as it states. No you can not use the HY's braking controller without batteries as it states. Its one way or the other. You other option is to buy a 1.5HY complete grid tie system.
    So in nut shell- Go cheap and use a simple battery bank. Step it up and use a battery bank and divert to a China GTI. Use a china 10-30 and a 22-60v GTI like I am or one step further, and use an Outback battery system or go all the way and buy a complete grid tie wind turbine system. Your budget will dictate which of these you will go for.
    The turbine cost about 1100.00
    China GTI's about 700.00 for both GTIs
    Outback inverter/grid tie 2000.00
    Batteries 150.00 ea.
    Plus wire tower meters ect.

    Hope this helps
  18. My goal is as cheap as I can get it and still do some good.. I do Not want to use batteries at all.
    Maybe to clarify my question. Do i need the controller that comes with the HY1000 at all and just hook it up as per your simple diagram. (this is my preference, all over simple)
    Can I save some money and purchase it without the controller stuff, and get just the turbine and blades of course..??

  19. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Understood. You can use my set up, no battery controller needed. You can not buy the turbine without the controller. I sold mine on Ebay. Try to also purchase a wind a wind meter and volt meter for your set up.

    Good luck!!
  20. Thanks, that's what I thought.. Already set up with meters on both sides of the inverter.. And I have a cheapo hand held wind meter..


Share This Page