Low Voltage Windy Boy

Discussion in 'Connecting to the Grid' started by windyguru, Jun 20, 2011.

  1. windyguru

    windyguru WindyNation Expert

  2. Minnesota

    Minnesota WindyNation Engineer

    Selling in the UK for $925USD equivalent. There is hope!
  3. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    One step further Windy Boy 1100
    The Windy Boy 1100 has been around for awhile but i do not believe it is UL approved.
    SMA Sunny Boy invrterters for solar are. UL approved inverters for micro wind are nonexisitant as far as i know. The only one i know and it is in question is the Ginlong. Raum will make a GTI UL aprroved GTI for wind for you and they are based out of Canada. I am sure it would not be cheaper then using a Sun G. Other then that ,use an outback GTI/battery back up 24v or 48v inverter and clamp with batteries.:)
  4. windyguru

    windyguru WindyNation Expert

    Silly me. I thought it was a new item from SMA.
  5. Minnesota

    Minnesota WindyNation Engineer

    The LV is not on the USA SMA page, but I checked the user's manual and it is dated 2005. Looks like a great unit other than being just 50Hz.
  6. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Sorry boy's back to China GTI's and non UL for the thrifty. :D
    This is where is it hard for me to install micro wind for customer's as a bussiness. Otherwise i would be a rich man, you too Josh. LOL Everyone wants grid tie and i can not install a non UL GTI for a customer due to liability reasons. Selling them is one thing, installing them is another for me. No one (my customers's) wants to mess with batteries other then guy's like us. It cost's about $22,500.00 for a Skysteam or Raum turbine and about $12,000.00 for a Windsphire to install with a UL inverter/ect. Most who can afford that do not have dirty hands. They own lots of land (proper wind site) and have lots of money. State/Federal rebates play a roll too as well as RECS. (Renewable Energy credits) that has to do with net metering which is a whole another topic. (man i could vent on that one too).

    I can tell you that one of the main componenets in a UL inverter is a Ground Fault D/C Circuit Interuptor. Non existant in the China GTI. Apperantly Mr. Hung Low felt it was not nesessary to install in his product. They are required by all utilities and the NEC code. Yes, even on a battery system's. They do make GFDCCI for battery non GTI system in the form of a breakers. Yes, we are suppose to be using them. Do we, hell no, another damn expense.
    (An Outback GTFX is your only hope for this). That thing cost more then most systems people have. That is one of many reason why a UL inverter is expensive.
    (Ground Fault Circuit interuptor) by the way do not hook up GFCI to you China GTI> you will burn up the GFCI. Trust me been there done that, Oops!!:(

    Now they are talking about an arc fault protection syetms on the D/C side D/C system as well. I already have to install arc fault breakers by code on any new A/C genral circuit i run in someone's home. Who is making up these rules. Arc fault on the A/C side for home circuits, arc fault on the D/C side for the UL inverter, GFCI outlets on the A/C side for water protection in home circuits, GFDCCI for the D/C side of the inverter. Is your head spinning? This is what i am up against when i get a call to install a wind turbine of any kw. Let alone the aprrpoval procees for the township, design, permits and multiple inspections. Pole mount or roof mount it does not matter. This all apllies for solar too for me.
    See what i mean. Hard sale for me. Help?? Sorry i had to vent

    Raum is the only comapnay i have found that would desing and build you a UL inverter to your specs. Yeah i am sure with shipping it is in the $1,500.00 range or more espicially custom built. Ginlong (China GTI) say's in accodance with UL standards What the hell does that mean. Is it or is'nt UL. All UL inverters usually say "UL approved" followe by a number like IEEE1741
    What is the solution for GTI for micro for a small business?
  7. murray2paddles

    murray2paddles WindyNation Engineer

    So do you feel better now Larry ?
    Like we have talked about many times, if you are not selling back to the utility as an owner I do not really care of all the approvals that it seems try to protect North American standards / businesses. As a business installer you will have to be creative in your billing !
    Now the important stuff dude, there is only one Mr Hung Low !
  8. TomT

    TomT WindyNation Engineer

    Found this about some more of the situation.
    I copied this....
    When arc faults do occur in PV systems, it is possible to detect and extinguish them before they start a fire, using a device called a DC PV arc-fault circuit interrupter. The 2011 U.S. National Electric Code (NEC) includes a new requirement (690.11) for the use of these devices in rooftop PV systems operating at DC voltages over 80 V.
    I am checking more. So far they are talking over 80 volts. I have read where people are adding in series and have had panels burn at junction box cause they overvolted the bypass diodes. At a certain point you will have to cut them out.
    But like most of us are at 12-24 volts on the DC side. So are they just using this as a blanket acroos the whole board. If they are then they are not looking at it right.
    As far as GFI are concerned I do not see why we need them. If is because there is an outlet. Then we should be able to hard wire them and not need a GFI.
    Here is another one on a forum.
    So from what I read......Stay below 80 Volts DC and hard wire the Grid Tie and we should be good as long as you can prove Island Protection?
  9. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Thanks Tom and Mr Hung Low. Really good info. The Mike Holt forum is very good and i do use it from time to time. I have sent the spect sheets to 3 utlities in my area for the China inverters and they shot them all down. I do agree that if you are slowing your meter down-not selling back it should be alot easier for an install . I am also affraid that the utilty will find i have not followed their protocall and i will be froced to remove the systems from my customers. I just can not get over this fear and it is holding em up to tap into a market i know will yeild profftitsand put my business moreon the map. An RE system does stick out. Even if the township does a drive by or gets WIND of the installation i would be forced to pull a permit, if and when that happens i will be forced to follow thru witht the UL guidlines or remove the system and refund.

    I could have a customer sign off on the job for using a Non UL inverter but i am not sure how that would all go as far as the sale telling them it is not UL. My other biggest fear if there is a fire i would be liable installing these non UL units. The hard part is there is so many varibles to get around to try to get a system in with the China inverters. Now to this day at my site i have been tesing he waters to all degree's in RE. My township building is right down the street and you can see my turbines for miles around. I have yet to be approched by anyone to confim my fears.

    The GFCI is a code thing for a home or business A/C ysystem use, no RE involved on that statement but agian they are not made for backfeeding from a RE inverter from China. I was just posting ( home GFCI) to show all the things involved on top of a RE system codes i have to follow. I do beleive all GTI's (China) should be hardwired as mine are and as UL inverters are.
    In a sense i do fell better for you guy's hearing me vent but no, i do not fell better because there has not been a simple cost effictive solution to use a GTI inverter for wind without batterries. The Outback inverter seems to still be the easiest solution from a business lliability stand point to install for a wind turbine that does not include it's own built in UL GTI inverter system. I hope to learn more bout this.
    Thanks guy's
    I will keep trying to find way's to get these systems to my customer's
    Your information is awlays welcome.:)
  10. murray2paddles

    murray2paddles WindyNation Engineer

    Morning Larry, well with me not being an electrician it is easier to ask questions and not feel to dumb .
    So help me out here bud, if all our household appliances operate with plug-ins and wall recepticals are a part of everyday wiring why is there this need to hard wire a grid tie inverter to a box to be accepted by code ?

    If your customer is not selling back to the utility and you have wired ANY grid tie by code are you still being held liable ?
    Is the UL a requirement for all applications ( selling back or slowing the meter) ?
    If that is the case how are our grid ties even getting past customs or allowed to be sold on EBay ?
    Do all USA states have the same code ? OR are there different codes per township wit in the same state ?

    No problem for me in Manitoba as our utility is run by "Neanderthals" ! When I first approached them years back on of their smartest comments to me was " why would you want to put up wind turbines cause that is our business not yours"
    Yah sure ass hole. That comment made me even more determined to go ahead and just choose the option of lowering my overall consumtion vrs selling.

    Did you ever hear back from your township that we wrote the ordenance for ?

    Outback is tempting but I can still buy 3 Sun grid tie 1kw for the price of one outback.

    I sm still doing my homework to choose for the 2 kw. grid tie.
  11. TomT

    TomT WindyNation Engineer

    That is why I posted it.
    It looks like this is for 80 volts and above. They must figure 80 volts as high voltage and that goes under different rules. And that they passed the rule ahead of the devices needed. Until they are available they should not be enforcing it.
    We had the same problem with arc faults when they came out for the home. They had to pass an amendment and extend the grandfathering of new construction a year cause the devices were not available. And the inspectors were trying to go right by the book. I know of at least 10 homes that came to a standstill over this.
  12. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Responese to Murray
    GREAT questions: I will keep them short others can add.
    If all our household appliances operate with plug-ins and wall recepticals are a part of everyday wiring why is there this need to hard wire a grid tie inverter to a box to be accepted by code ?

    1.The GTI can not be shorted by any other device you would plug into on that circuit.
    2. Ampacity reasons- if you have a 15 amp home ciruit (14 gauge wire) (1800w) and you run over 80% of that rated circuit in amp you have now exceeded the rating on the wire and the breaker. Most understand this but the code does not allow it. All UL inverters have a hard wire connection.
    2. Wire runs to the GTI. If incorrect power loss can occur.
    3. Most think plugging a china GTI into a GFCI outlet is ok. it is not.
    4. If you sell your home with the RE you installed the wrong way you will have to remove or redue because a gorilla solar/wind system will never pass a home inspection.
    Just 4 basic ideas.
    There are to many reason to not run a GTI to a dedicted circuit then there are not to.
    More technical reasons can be found throughout the internete.
    If your customer is not selling back to the utility and you have wired ANY grid tie by code are you still being held liable ?
    Absolutley, any compnay working in a customers home installing system would be. I can also be fined for not pulling a permit and they have the jurisdiction to have the system removed. The utility has jurasdiction to shut the customer down if they feel an unsafe system was installed. If the customer
    were to sign off on a waiver assuming all reprecusions i can/would consider the install. Otherwise i have to follow the rules. the protcall is not that bad. What maks it bad is different codes per townships regarding setbacks and where the systems can be located on the property as far as apperances.
    some townships have no ordenenses in place for RE which makes my job way more difficult because now i have to educate the board which takes months. then they have to put one in place, which takes months.

    Is the UL a requirement for all applications ( selling back or slowing the meter) ?
    In Pa it is. I can not answer for the rest. Although I do beleive it is throughout the states.
    If the state has adopted the "net meter" system then i would say aUL inverter is a must.
    If no net meter system has been adopted then i am not sure and can only speculate.

    Do all USA states have the same code ? OR are there different codes per township wit in the same state ?
    I can not answer for all the states. Townships do have their own codes which makes it very difficult.
    Townships also have jurisdictions over the inspectors.....in PA

    If that is the case how are our grid ties even getting past customs or allowed to be sold on EBay ?
    I can not answer for customs or ebay i have wondered that too.
    In my area they sell fireworks around 4th of July. You can buy them from road side tents but you can not use them. Fireworks are illegal in Pa. Some stuff just makes no sense.

    Did you ever hear back from your township that we wrote the ordenance for ?
    I have and they are stilll working on the ordences we wrote for them. When i have a copy i will post.
    Thank you for you help on that.

    It all comes down to the responsibility of individual and contractor to conatct their utlity provider and township to get the facts of their locations for a RE system. All of this information can be provided by them. If you choose not to then it will always be a guessing game. Unfortuanley Lemay Electric Inc has to play the game by the book but Larry Leamy as an individual has the choice to play or not to play and assume all if any consequenceses that may occur.

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