Leamy Electric grid tie wind system

Discussion in 'Wiring Methods' started by leamywind1, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Grid Tie Inverter Wind Turbine Wire Diagram

    Leamy Electric Inc. Pottstown Pa

    This wiring diagram is for a 1kw 24 or 28vdc rated wind turbine only. Showing how to use a small inverter with lower voltage inputs and also using a larger inverter with higher voltage inputs all at the same time with one turbine to collect the most wind watts as possible. The inverter's are non UL approved and they are the wind rated Sun g type (WDL) DC input from Ebay. The first inverter does not get any dump coils hooked to it only the second inverter does. This system works with a WN and field tested with a Windmax 1kw 24v 5 blade turbine. Use this diagram at your own discretion.;)

    grid tie wind turbine system.jpg
    Andy R. and TomT like this.
  2. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    This system can be as compact as placed in one enclosure box. The inverters are stacked. In this system each inverter has a dedicated 120v plug and AC line making it a 240v system using one kw meter per inverter. this could be used for one or two turbines. Just an example of how the system can be installed properly and neatly.:):)

    GTI box 2.jpg
  3. Hi Larry,
    Nice. Much cleaner than mine, but I see some similarities, so I'm not feeling like a total amateur! Couple Q's;
    - Why not GFCI for the AC outlet?
    - Your pictured inverter looks like it is labeled 500w. Is 1000w the max?
    - In our thread on my set-up you suggested a relay to offload the grid-tie inverter during gusts that might exceed what the Sun GTI can handle getting to the dump load. Is that not necessary in yours because you have the smaller inverter?
    - I don't get how volts can vary if the turbine and other components are IMG_0225.jpg 24v? I've been assuming volts were fixed and only amps varied?
  4. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Hi Chris great questions and i will try to explain:)
    Why not GFCI for the AC outlet?
    A GFI does not work as intended when back feeding it. It can be fasly tripp by doing this as well as damaging the trip solinoid. Their is a line and load connection on the GFI sending power into it again cause dammage and ultimutly shutting off your inverter. This is nothing but miss guided information on using a GFI for a GTI. Also, the electronics themselves inside will not react with input power as it has a 5 ma trip limit from the neutral to ground so all of the way it should function goes out the window when using them that way. A dedicated line for your system and the correct circuit breaker is the proper way to install the GTI. There is a lot of information in detail on back feeding a GFI on the web if you would like to research.

    - Your pictured inverter looks like it is labeled 500w. Is 1000w the max?
    This was my first system I contained. It is two 500w inverters 10-30vdc input. The picture is actually a system i built for a customer in NY who has a MWS turbine (car PMA). We stacked two inverters to keep the PMA from over volting to much. Years later i have found that stacking them does not work as well as using 1 inverter per turbine or the way i am doing one lower watt and volt and one higher watt and volt.Funny thing is after two years have gone by the guy still has not installed it so i have no results to share. ALl of this is experimental as to what turbine works well with what inverter.

    My Dump loads
    No i do not need an exteral relay.I use (2) WN 48v dump coils at 300w each maikng it a 600w 48v dump load for the HY1kw, same for the for the HY600, and 300w for the HY 400. This is 12.5 amps the relay sees with 600watts of coils at 48 volts which is under the 16 amps it is rated for. this is also why guys are burning them up, ya got do the math. My turbine's can hit 48v in about 14-15 MPH winds with no load. So if the grid goes down they will have to spin up to that speed to see a load from the coils otherwise yes, the do free wheel.I have yet to have a power outage and them run off the coils for to long. Remeber this is for my site. For my site a power outage is very often and not long at all. I can also switch them to a bat bank I have in the event I need wind power for my batteries. Some may want to have their turbines see a higher and quicker load at less wind speeds which is where the external relay will be of good use but for me they are set up perfectly for my particualr site. Each of my turbines are set up to their location so each one has it's own charectoristics regarding how they preform from blades to inverters/controls. It's taken me 3 years to get them this far to where i feel i have done all i can do to make the system work as a whole with no failures.

    24v components
    Most turbine dealers if not all of them that sell micro wind in the 1kw class and under only ever rate them for battery charging. A 12 v turbine will go up higher in voltage to like 40, a 24 may hit 70 and a 48 may hit 100 with no load. Just like OCV for a solar panel. The trick is when using these GTI's to find the perfect match between amps and volts to get the rated power. Again the dealers have not done this and for what reason i can only speculate why as they only sell for battery charging. Only the batteries (battery system) can really regulate the voltages from 12-48. The GTI takes the voltage and raises it as the amps drop with it's MPPT. Most if not all of the GTI's only have a 20 or 30amp amp fuse in it anyway so a 10-30v 500 watt inverter is converting lets say 26 volts at about 20 amps by then you go to over volt/dump. That again can only happen if you have matched up the right turbine to do so. I have found the 24v WM or WN does very well with a 22-60v inverter. Higher voltages means less amps, cooler rectifiers, which leads to a better co efficiant turbine. So their is a lot of testing for a person who buys a small turbine and expects these GTI's to just work. I am trying to lay the ground work for people just like that. There is a hell of a lot more to it then just plugging them in.

    I can tell you that a WM 1kw 24v turbine 5 blade, a 10-30v 250w GTI and a 1kw 22-60v GTI is a perfect proven system for these GTI's. You will produce about 10 watts at 6-7 MPH and at 35 MPH you will get a 1000 watts provided you have the right site.

    I hope I have answered your questions?:)
    TomT likes this.
  5. Hi Larry,
    Thanks so much for the detailed explanations! A few follow-ups;
    - So, does having the 2 inverters with lower and higher volt ranges give you a system that increases load as the turbine increases power in higher wind? I.e. your 1000w inverter only cuts-in when there's enough to feed it and the 250w? Pretty sure that's what your saying.
    - Related question - does a 24v turbine produce less than 24 volts in lighter wind? I.e. if I add a Sun 300w 10.8v-30v inverter to the 500w 22-60w one I've got, would that be a good set-up for my WN 750?
  6. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Hi Chris,
    To Answer:
    "So, does having the 2 inverters with lower and higher volt ranges give you a system that increases load as the turbine increases power in higher wind?" Yes, what happens as the wind pushes harder it increase RPM and voltage. Having that said putting a small 250w GTI on the front end will allow the turbine to produce in low winds and at low voltages and RPM's with some higher amps but in the mid to higher range the inverter will join up with the 22-60 volt as it lets the RPM's climb since the little 250 can not hold the turbine down as much like a 500 w 10-30 GTI. As this happens the voltage will increase and the amps will decrease. Allowing the volts to climb since it is now in the 22-60v range and the amps lower and will allow the turbine to run more efficiant. So it is not necessaryly a case of more load but more a case of a co efficiancy factor is what you are afte. Less amps means less abuse on your system, no heating up of things. Battery systems need amps, grid tie systems need volts and less amps. Yes, i think you may find that a 250 GTI not a 300 would be a good set up along with a 500 w 22-60v GTI. i think the 300 may hold the WN down to much for this set up of a wind speed. To less of wind means you will never hit the right rpm's for the 22-60 to do the job. to much wind and you may hit opvervolt to quick bwefore getting the rated watts from the 22-60 as the 300 may not let go until 25mph. It's a tricky situation so try the 250 first. The goal is to get the turbine to get up in RPM's and volts for the 22-60v GTI at a sweet spot. You will see the 250 GTI will go to over volt about 15 MPH-20 MPH, maybe less. That will depend on how the WN reacts to the new set up. (mine is about 14 mph) You want the 22-60v inverter to handel the higher winds and RPM's their is a chance you may never even see over volt....maybe. The goal is to get like 10 amps at 50 vdc to get your full 500w rating at or under 35 MPH. 35 MPH is a realistic wind speed for micro wind from 100w-1 kw turbines if they are good proven turbines. Using the two inverters is like trying to adjust the steepness, we can not adjust the steepness on these China inverters so the closest way i can see doing it and to capture some kind of wind watts from 6 MPH to 35 MPH is this way. I do not have all the answers but again this is the only way I see it being done to maxumize these smaller turbines with these China inverters. I think we all can feel good knowing they (turbines) make some kind of power when the wind just farts rather then waiitng around for 12 MPH winds. I know there is not much power in low wind speeds under 10 MPH but again knowing you are getting someting is better then nothing as the old saying goes. Remmber a 500 w turbine will not do much. Small blades, small PMA's equal small power, unfortunetley that is the truth. This is all experimental as even a particular site can yield different results but you may want to give this set up a try as i feel it may do you well. IMO you really have to pick your poison with these inverters and just having a wind system. Meaning try to set up your system to your site not for max power unless you get 35 MPH winds 80% of the year but for more constant power production. So even if you may never see max power you may yeild more kwh's. The goal is every time it spins, it makes power. Like a solar system. That is how my system is set up, to get the most kwh (constant production) i can because grid tie systems are whole different animal then battery systems. Looking for top end bragging rights is only a sales pitch way of thinking. It's the annual kW production that really counts. Remeber try to keep it simple and cost effective as much as possible. Try not to get caught up in all kinds of goofy ideas because they do not work. The addciition likes to be fed so becareful. The bottom line is you need lots of wind and with the bigger turbine you have, the more kwh's you will make........ oh and yes solar is king by far .LOL

    Good luck

    I hope this helps ya.:)
  7. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    IMAG0026.jpg Chris, here is a good example of what i am talking about and why I think using the smaller inverters work pretty decent but also having the right combination of the two inverters as well.. If you look at my wind power data graph in ac watts you will see how many times my turbines stay off the zero mark. Each time it did touch the zero mark it was only for a few seconds not minutes The wind speed was 18.6 MPH.

  8. Thanks again. So, with these grid-tie inverters does the turbine freewheel until it hits the min voltage, i.e. 10.8 for one of the low-end ones?
  9. And same q for the dump load coils. If I wired my 24v WN750 directly to my 4x 24v dumps, would there be no load until until the propeller is spinning at whatever rpm equals 24 volts?
  10. TomT

    TomT WindyNation Engineer

    Turbines freewheel till they come up to the start voltage of the grid tie.
    Resistors will put a load on the turbine from the start. Will increase as the turbine spins up to a point. If there is more power than the resistor can handle then it will melt down and the turbine will freewheel. Bad situation.
    leamywind1 likes this.
  11. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Tom said it. Thanks
  12. Hopefully you guys enjoy answering all these questions. I sure appreciate it! If you're ever in NH, beers on me...
    In playing out the turbine freewheeling due to fried inverter relay or melted dump load scenarios, do you know if the self-furling of the WN turbines occurs at the same rpm whether there's load or not? I.e. is that a safety net? And is there a way to tell if the inverter relay is fried w/out waiting for a high-wind day and seeing if it tries to divert to the dump load? Mine has the the three green lights blinking happily one after the other and I've never been there to see it go to the dump load. In fact, I'm suspicious of the green lights, since they blink in sequence even when there's very little wind, when I doubt there's enough for it to kick-in. Which brings me to yet another question - can a Sun inverter be the power source for for a WN watt meter?
  13. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    Hey Chris no problem. I like sharing what i can to help out. I will take you up on that beer if i ever come out that way. LOL
    No i do not know that match up between the furling of a WN and a GTI/rpm/power curve, and how it all relates. Furling is a saftey net for sure. I do not use furling on my turbines. If the dump load relay fries it is usually stuck in dump mode, then ya gotta go in and operate on that relay :( I just started running my WN on a 1 kw 22-60v GTI and I have yet to see it over volt up to 32 mPH winds. It comes close like in the 50 v range though. (There is not a lot of detailed information posted on the 750 regarding grid tie). I have not tested for watts yet. Just getting started on that turbine. So far (1) 250w gti 10-30v and a 1kw 22-60v inverter has worked very well for it. I just not have clairified the full watts with that set up yet. Again I use (2) 300w 48v dump coils for 600w at 48v. Seems to work perfect even for my 1 kw 24v Wind Max.

    Your inverter ,try putting a volt meter on it and see what it is getting on the dc side. You may want to invest in a wind meter too. They will give you a good idea of what is going on and the data you need.

    WN watt meter...yes it can but:
    The WN watt meter is rated for 60 vdc, if you go over that they fry. I recommend monitoring the just AC side with digital and use an analog meter for the DC if you plan on using the 1 kw 22-60 GTI. Those meters are good for up to like 48 vdc battery charging or lower GTI voltages.

    I hope this helps:)
  14. So, I finally got a watt meter running between the AC/DC inverter and the 500w grid-tie inverter and I'm pretty sure I can see that in moderate wind I'm getting 10-15volts, but I don't think the grid-tie inverter kicks-in 'till 22 volts. It sounds like there's load (the turbine groans) and it is slower than when freewheeling. So my question is, where is the electricity going when the grid-tie hasn't kicked-in?
    Plan is to buy one of the 250w inverters that kicks-in at 10.8 volts so I have a stepped system like you propose above.
  15. TomT

    TomT WindyNation Engineer

    Have a picture of your current setup?
  16. Attached.
    I just re-read this thread and looks like you already answered my Q w/ "Turbines freewheel till they come up to the start voltage of the grid tie. Resistors will put a load on the turbine from the start. Will increase as the turbine spins up to a point." I guess those resistors are generating heat inside the inverter? Doesn't seem like it is freewheeling to me, but that's just my gut from it groaning less and spinning faster when I have none of the 3 AC cables attached to anything. I've got to confirm the inverter I got is 22-60v, not 10.8-30, in which case I'd be mistaken about it doing nothing at 10-15v, (seems the green lights cycle as long as the turbine is spinning a tiny amount), but I'm 90% sure it is 22-60. Looks like the sell both.

    Attached Files:

  17. TomT

    TomT WindyNation Engineer

    OK to make it easier to troubleshoot.
    First check for any voltage on dump load terminals. There should be none if not dumping. If there is voltage the dump Mosfets are shorted.
    If there isn't disconnect the GTI. If it is not spinning faster check out the rectifier it might have a diode shorted.
    If it spins faster then it is something wrong with the GTI.
    Let us know what you find.
  18. leamywind1

    leamywind1 WindyNation Engineer

    You may want to check
    In your diagram, your neg from your rectifier has to go to the watts meter first on the input side of the watts meter along with the pos. On the out put (load side) of the watts meter you should have pos and neg going to the GTI. Your diagram shows the neg from the rectifier going to the GTI and the watts meter.

    Your brake should be using the AC side of the rectifier, not the DC side.
    Please let us know
  19. Hi, Reading through these earlier posts from Larry I have a question.. Larry says: "Yes, i think you may find that a 250 GTI not a 300 would be a good set up along with a 500 w 22-60v GTI. i think the 300 may hold the WN down to much for this set up of a wind speed"
    My wind setup is finally done, and I did almost the exact way as Larry's diagram at the top of this post, except I used the 300W/10.8-30v.. Could the 300w be holding me down. Right now I have 12-16mph winds, looks to be spinning pretty fast. But I'm only getting 26-30w max... Nothing like 100w or 200w.. Does the 250w make that much of a difference over the 300?
    To state so differences in my setup:
    -300W GTI as stated
    -I also put my DC amp meter in the neg side not the pos.
    -I tied to 2 GTI's AC cord together to go through one Kill-A-Watt meter
    -One 3ohm 1500w dump load resistor.
    -I used the SkyMax HY-1000 should be the same.
    Here are pics of my setup... IMG_0769.JPG IMG_0774.jpg
  20. Quick observation.. I unplugged the 300w inverter and it allowed the turbine to spin faster up to 23-25v now generation 80-125w. Another ? is would it of been better to get the 48v turbine??

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