Hydraulic motor to run Windy nation 500 PMA

Discussion in 'Windtura Generators' started by wayne777, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    I am using a hydraulic motor to turn my 500 pma, I have the 24v charge controller.

    Could you please educate me concerning measuring the out put, while just charging batteries - the positive line for the charger reads -.8 amps and the negative side reads +.8 amps?

    .8 X 24 is 19 watts? my generator is running 900 rpms. Am I measuring wrong, are the watts related to the battery charge?

    Thank you for the help.

    you can see pictures of my set up on;


    Look for the Z.E.D

  2. timber

    timber WindyNation Engineer

    Hi Wayne,

    It appears that you are measuring amperage on the AC portion of the circuit.
    I think you need to take the measurement on the positive DC lead after the rectifier (between rectifier and controller).
    Not familiar with the meter you are using but be sure it will measure DC amperage and is set for DC.
    Hopefully others will correct me if I'm wrong but this should give you an accurate reading (located between rectifier and controller),
    The SOC (State Of Charge) of the battery should have no effect if you are using a diversion load since the turbine will be either charging the batteries or heating the coils (resistance).

    At 900 rpm's you should be well over the rpms required to charge at 24V. (not sure of rpm's needed for 24V system but I think you are on the high side rather than low, not a bad thing).

    Give this a try and keep us posted, if this doesn't do the trick, we can look over your circuit to see if we can discover what's up.
    I prefer to use an inline ammeter (positive DC lead next to rectifier with shunt but the type you have is probably much easier, I just don't have one).

  3. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    Thank You very much.

    I am using a craftsman meter that you clamp over the line, I was measuring the lead the goes to the battery. I will double check to see that I had the meter in dc and I will measure between the wire to the controller instead.

    My heart sank when I thought I was only getting 19 watts................

    I am using the windy nation controller, I have set the controller (at start up) button held five seconds, and then ten seconds).

    I think I am tellng it to charge the system unless the battery reaches 27volts. my battery reads 25.1 volts.

    I will have a continuos load on the system of 290 watts, the set up is to hydraulicly run the pma, and the pma provide the 290w continually.

    Let me know if you think this set up has inherint problems, my electrical engineer understands but is not familiar with all the in and outs of alternative energy, pma's and charge controllers
  4. timber

    timber WindyNation Engineer

    "Over Unity" hmmmm ... "We have the working closed looped system operating far in excess of unity." ... extraordinary to say the least.

  5. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    I hate (as in - too bad) the stigmatist that comes with the "Quote - Over unity" But we are so far over "over unity" who would believe it anyway.

    We have our Demo model - output power by windy nation Generator - they are going to get some pretty big press coverage - I hope they do not mind the stigmatism ;-)

    Today our electrical engineer spent the day teaching me about the ins and outs of generating electricity.

    Our process is simple - We use a 1.2 gpm 950psi hydraulic motor 900rpm to power the system,

    We consume in this small model, 260w + demo bulbs - that to me is a joke. All the investors insisted that we could run a 40 watt light bulb.

    The joke is it is not much harder to make 10kw - base costs do not rise much from 40 watts to 10 kw.

    But - they have "seen the light" and that is what has made them happy.

    We have a 100kw (net) system PE certified by Texas A&M graduates and are working on our 500kw sytem - it has an excess of 675 hp.

    My invention is a buoyancy multipler, we call a Z.E.D.

    In short - my design makes buoyancy 11 times more powerful - so one cubic foot lifts almost 700 pounds instead of 62. no levers, no gears, just mechanics.

    Bouyant at 62lbs a foot discplacement is 28% efficient, it is a waste of time. But at 700 psi per foot - big oppurtunity.

    I do appreciate your help. Ever in Oklahoma, come by.
  6. timber

    timber WindyNation Engineer

    I might be a skeptic but I'm certain I'm not a stigmatist ...
    ... guess I'd better get my glasses checked and re-read the first and second laws of thermodynamics. ;)

  7. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    Yeah, I know. Energy can not be created or destroyed - and the law of conservation of Energy, and thermal dynamics and many thousands of years of failed attempts, scam artists, and measurement error. it is the statement every public educated man or engineer states before they look.

    I do not try to explain those away - I did not claim them, I did not write them. I respect others belief - as far as if they chose to believe something, who am I to force my belief?

    I could not join that religion, I am much too humble to make such a claim - I do not know if men realize it , but those "laws" require that all possible data was observed and perceived.

    The statement that unity can not be exceeded - requires that one can perceive every combination of design in the universe and conclude that one certain thing is impossible.

    I do understand that if you are giving a set of facts, or a set of elements, or a set of amino acids, or a set of numbers - that there is a predictable and repeatable, combination - and number of combinations, reactions, predictions.

    I understand how this can give man the feeling of control and comfort in his surroundings.

    But the underlying truth is that man is merely describing what he can see, combine, observe. He is in no way in control. The grain of sand declaring authority over the ocean, or man over physics.

    If energy (or matter) can not be created or destroyed- where did it come from? The point is "Man observes and reports - his dictation of the law is merely an observation.

    In addition - imagine how impossible it would be if the number 2 sometimes had a value of 5, 3, or 11 - that would make observation erratic - fortunately we can observe that mathematics are a constant - we can observe that throughout our scope of science - but when we limit our understanding willingness to observe to that which is already in our understanding - we once again claim to have authority over all.

    I do not claim that two is ever anything but two, but the number two does not control anything - it merely describes, from a perspective 2 + 0 = 3 after the wedding ;-)

    I have had 9 engineers, two physicist come check out our system, and each walk up and quote the laws (man made and observed) - most of them politely tell me up front - as if to protect them self with a disclaimer - as to be sure to be clear of "stigmatism" I do not blame them, to many measurement errors, to many failed attempts.. Experience would favor the denial.

    Yet, as soon as they witness the operation - they suddenly get excited and want to get involved -to never mention the law again - other than short statement like - I just new it, or they will have to rewrite some text books, or I would like to show my professor this.... and then they all ask to get involved.

    One even asked to be on the patent - for my protection of course....

    My point is only this - we are limited by our observation, to make a blanket law that restricts any future discover is foolish, Data should create and drive our laws - if laws drove our future - the only inventions we would have would be those within our current understanding.

    I believe, in the past, just maybe - an invention or two has altered the understanding of man, that is usually called a Revolution.

    Which is why I named the company - Hydro Energy Revolution LLc

    We were very careful, we spent five years and built 7 separate versions of our original discovery to test and retest each individual aspect of the design.

    To be clear, we currently have Models in the efficiency of over 3000%
    Our little Demo - is only just over 200%
    Our models follow strict calculations, and work in simple terms. such as the simple observation - 250 in 450 out - with four energy conversions in the middle... impossible...

    I doubted my findings and continually repeated the tests, then I hired a certified P.E to "Explain why my machine DOES NOT work" he was rather joyous of the idea and after he clean slated the design four times, upgraded his computer and software and started over - he came over and said - I have failed - I have extended every possible energy, force, and power calculation that exists and they continue to confirm the simple calculations --- your machine works, you have far exceeded unity.

    The only reason for the light bulb was to be able to overcome the religion of "impossible"

    You should consider this offer - come check it out for yourself, and bring a Windy nation sticker to place on or in the cabinet - or both - by the generator - you would be in history.
  8. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    I am still trying to solve my generator /charge / motor problem..

    kind of got off subject..and I realy need help.

    I added a new post in the charge controller section.
  9. timber

    timber WindyNation Engineer

    Sounds like not enough energy powering the PMA since it reduces the RPM like that unless you have a short somewhere.
    No idea on torque specs. but wind exerts a lot of force when harnessed by the right set of blades.
    Try powering that PMA with an electric motor with constant RPM to test it out, a drill press or lathe is a good way to control the RPM for testing.
    While the PMA is out of the system, short all three AC leads together and try turning it by hand, should be very difficult to turn.
    If you upload a photo of your charging circuit at your other post it will help determine if the wiring is correct.
    I suspect it's working, just need more energy to power the PMA.

  10. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    Thanks Dave,

    I will send the photos to that link,

    Will you also direct me to the RPM / watt chart for the 500 windtura

    I may gear down to the speed I need, thus increasing torque.

    Thanks Wayne
  11. timber

    timber WindyNation Engineer

  12. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    Access Denied??
  13. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    I slowed the motor down to 300 rpm, and checked the volts dc side, 25.03

    AMperage was just barely 1.0

    Is that not 25 watts?

  14. timber

    timber WindyNation Engineer

    Regarding the PMA, power in = power out minus inherent loses (resistance and inductive reactance as well as friction at the bearings).
    If your hydraulic pressure is inadequate and your hydraulic motor reduces RPM (slows) when put under load, gearing it down will only add more friction and losses to your system.

    Test the PMA and charge/ diversion circuit by convincing yourself to take the hydraulic motor out of the loop temporarily.
    Use a temporary power source other than your hydraulic motor, one that has lots of torque, like a lathe, a powerful motor or drill press (as previously suggested) then apply a load via your inverter, let the batteries drain a little and see what you get for amperage draw then.
    I'm very confident the PMA and controller, if wired correctly and powered by sufficient power source, will put out the rated wattage. (I've got the WindTura 500)
    Give what I've suggested a try, yes, 25V x 1A = 25W, but you knew that already ... it doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not the charging system is working if there is not an adequate supply of power to drive the PMA under load.
    Try reading what is below the "Access Denied", there is information there regarding start-up torque, I thought it might be helpful.
    For a 24 volt battery bank, the WindTura 500 PMA will produce about 20 amps at about 600 rpm (this is a constant 600 rpm while under load).
    (I believe the WindTura 500 PMA may have been discontinued and replaced by the new 750 PMA, therefor the 500 photo says Access Denied)

    Hope you get your charging system working and tested.

    That all folks,

  15. wayne777

    wayne777 WindyNation Engineer

    Hello Dave, I do so much appreciate and need your wisdom,

    I will remove pma from the system and drillpress it, and I too am completly confident in the windtura 500 - I am not complaining about the product.

    I am confused becasue I have increased the poer to the generator and it still ran the same speed and only produced .9 amps, loaded it, drained my batteries, and no change - up or down?

    My motor puts out three times the start up torque required, it instantly jumps to speed, and has never bogged (any more).. it turns 1000 rpm when the generator is not connected to anything. I cut my input power in half, the same speed same output? Do you see my confusion?

    Please understand I am not arguing, just seeking help.

    I will hook up only to the rectifier, I have a spare and test it with a dc load also.

    I will let you know the results of the drill press and the DC voltage / load and no controller.

    Thank you for your trouble shooting and time.

    And then with controller.

    just in case it might just be a short in the controller
  16. timber

    timber WindyNation Engineer

    Very good idea on using the rectifier only in your testing, eliminating as many components and variables as possible (initially) will really help you narrow things down.
    When I got my PMA I tested it by shorting 2 of the three AC leads and tried turning the shaft by hand and it would barely turn at all ... good sign ... I did this with all three combinations of using 2 leads thus checking each of 3 phases. Then shorted all three together, wouldn't budge. This is an easy way to tell that all three phases of the PMA are doing what they should. (Do not short leads at the drill press, just by hand).

    CAUTION: When you test your PMA at the drill press, set your drill press for the lowest RPM, if you have this option, and please be sure to clamp the PMA VERY securely so you can keep your hands and body away when testing.

    My take on how the charging system works: (You probably have seen this pic and information but it may help in checking your wiring)

    I use the following picture to understand the charge system wiring:
    http://www.windynation.com/sites/defaul ... CC%201.jpg

    AC 3-phase current from the PMA is converted to DC current at the 3-phase bridge rectifier.
    The DC current then charges the battery directly but goes through an in-line, automatic reset fuse. (A closed loop, always connected unless the fuse blows)
    Note he heavier gauge wire used to carry the DC current from the rectifier to the battery (8AWG in this case).
    Larger wire size here will help help keep resistance down to get the most from your PMA (Even though you have a pretty short run which is good).

    The diversion load (dump load) is wired directly to the battery but has a Normally Open (NO) relay switch that is controlled by the charge controller. (There is also an in-line, automatic reset fuse in this NO loop).
    Note he heavier gauge wire used to carry the DC current from the battery to the dump load (8AWG in this case).

    In essence, the controller's function is to sense the State-Of-Charge (SOC) of the batteries and control the relay switch.

    If the SOC of the batteries is at or above a programmed set-point voltage then the controller activates the NO relay switch to close the loop between the battery and the dump load. (Thus draining off some of the battery voltage and also making a connection, via the same relay, between the DC charge current from the PMA and the dump load).

    If the SOC of the batteries is below a specified voltage (I believe this low voltage point is factory set) then the controller deactivates the NO relay switch to open the loop between the battery (including the DC charge current) and the dump load. (Thus allowing the DC charge current from the PMA to again charge the battery (or battery bank).

    During testing, if PMA passes the hand turning test above great! If you still are not getting a good amp reading via turning at drill press while connected to a DC load such as a partially drained battery or battery and dump load, I would suspect your clamp-on ammeter is giving you a false reading for some reason.


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