I have read somewhere that a three blade design is best overall. In world war two they found that more than three blades caused rotor wash at both high and low speed.And that drag resitance is grater too.is this true? I hope to buy one of your pma's sometime soon.Thanks Konnon6
The general consensus is that 3 and 5 blade systems are the best for electricity generation: http://www.windynation.com/web/tip-spee ... -selection Now, for a windmill that is designed to pump water out of the ground, a slow turninng, 15-blade rotor would work well. In this situation, low rpm and extremely high torque are more important than high rpm and less torque. If we were to compare windmills to vehicles, this would be our tractor.
I read the link. Which blade set do you feel works the best with your Windy500? I was thinking about buying a 35" WindGrabber in 3 or 5 blade, to go with my Windy500. What are your thoughts? BeachBum
I have beens using the 3 blade 35" with the small hub for over a year on the Windy 500 and the results are very good. Catches wind at approx. 2-3 mph and cuts in at around 5-6 mph It preforms quiet so I would recommend it for any location, urban or remote. It feeds a 12 V battery bank of 1030 amp hrs. so rotates at a completly different blade sweep than the test 750 standing beside it. Most of this is due to the load of the bank and being a 12 V system It is difficult to compare the two blade sets right now as the 750 being a larger turbine requiring more torque to turn but then it also feeds an inverter system that operates at 28V - 55V . this allows less load / more freedom for this blade set to reach a higher rpm. We will be mounting a 5 blade (the new larger one) to test the same windy 500 turbine with 5 blades. This should not take long as the hub is in Canada customs awaiting clearance. The two main things I want to test will be Will it be able to take advantage of lower to medium winds due to having more torque to feed this battery bank Will it run quiet in different wind speeds. I want to test if there will be a noise created by the 5 blades due to wind lift, catching more wind. I am hoping to give you real time answers within 2 weeks. Mark, you have asked questions mounts etc. I will respond to those with what info I have on the forum site where you questioned so others may follow the responses.
With a three blade prop you get more (wind bite) than say a 5or 6 blade prop why-because a 5 or 6 blade prop causes prop turbulance(wind wash) thus canceling out speed and tork at low speeds at high speed the same thing happens. Wind is like a fluid,and the flow of it through the prop is how its proformance and how well it does its job.Drag is the resistace on it serfaces and the flow through each blade.More blades more drag,less blades and smaller blades less wind bite,thus less power less speed.During world war two the three blade prop was the best prop for the spitfire to cut a sharper circle and faster speeds with less prop wash than the six blade.(WHY?) less prop wash less drag in the wind. water mills need more blades for tork not speed.I left out the formules as not to confuse you,but its pretty straight forward.Its not rocket science but thats why a rocket with three fins flys higher than the same rocket with four(drag).
Murray, Why did you choose 28 Volts as your starting-V on the inverter. Has it been an effective steepness setting? BeachBum
Mark, your talking to dumb and dumber all rolled up into one on that one.. 28V on my inverter steepness,, heck I only went with what was advertised that the inverter DC input range was 28V up to 55V. All my inverters were tuned by Marcel to match my turbines out put. Did he tune yours for you also ? I will write to him to explain to me why 28V is chosen as the start Volt input. All the grid tie plug in's I looked at usually all had 28V as their start input. I never questioned it after that. On the info you sent me for the inverters on the solar panels I believe they also have 28V to 50 range. That is why I was interested in hearing from you on that inverter. If the panels we were looking at had maximum Volt of 30 and the inverters did not cut in till 28V, I was wondering what the heck, but then what do I know. Any help I can get from you will be much appreciated.
BeachBum, My Opinion is that for most wind areas, the 3-blade WindGrabber set is best for the 500 Watt Unit. Murray will probably be able to address this question in detail once he tests a 5-blade WindGrabber set-up on his 500 Watt PMA. He has already flown a 3-Blade set for a while now.
Murray, The last email Marcel sent me said that he was the "warehouse manager" and that he "does not know how to program the chips". I already received the inverter, but I am still waiting on the chips, software, and programing cable from the Netherlands. He claims the chips he is sending have been programed to match your setup, I guess these chip were programed by one of their techs. Now I'm beginning to wonder if the chips were set up to match the 500 or the new 750 you are running. I'm really trying to get my head around the concept of the "starting-V". I understand that @55volts the power created is diverted to the dump load. I also understand that you can adjust the steepness by adjusting the starting voltage, but why? Using the Windy 500, the SWEA 250Watt statup kit and one 250Watt extension kit should cover the 500Watt PMA, yes? Didn't you run a 500 with just two SWEA boxes? For easy math: If you set the starting-V @25, and power goes to the dumpload @55volts, you have a 30volt spread across 2 SWEA boxes. In my case they sent me a 4 box system. I guess the load would be spread evenly across 4 boxes, or roughly 7.5volts per box, based on the 30 spread. Here are my question: If it is programable, why would a person pick such a high starting voltage? Is it to allow the PMA to spool up enough RPM's before hitting resistance producing power? Is this part of what is refered to as "cut in speed"? I'm really showing how little I understand, but I know you own this exact unit and you have gone through some pain learning this. Thanks again! BeachBum
I do have a little more info for you on the start V for the inverters. Your questions are begining to resemble mine on the inverter Volt ranges especially for sun solar. I also questioned his comments on the tuning "the same as Murray's" due to the fact that I am running them on my 750 I did run two on my 500 and I burnt them out due to the Windy 500 putting out more V than the inverters could handle. On the 750 I am using 4 (250 watt) inverters so really set up for 1000 watt. We had a good storm last week and & the 750 put out so much Volts it put each inverter into shut down and activated the braking system. I was really surprised. Beach, I am still in the city with my wife and as you know why, I am not always able to get back to you right away. Will let you know how she is later. Murray
Beach to be more specific on some of your questions on what amount of inverters will match a windy turbine, It seems that although Windy may be advertising their turbines as 500 or 750, my experiences have been that they are both capable of producing more V than their advertised rates. This maybe a good buy in regards to a turbine purchase but it also creates a learning curve on how to match another product to run with them when there are specified Voltage ranges.
Murray, Don't worry about responding quickly. I understand. Regarding the SWEA units, if you look at their 1kw turbine combo with invertor, they show it will take up to a total of 6 extension boxes to handle the extra power. I don't know how they would wire them into the AP Box. They claim their 1kw turbine will produce 1.5 kw in heavy winds. If you wanted to run 2 Windy500's again, at the same time, I guess you could buy 2 more extension boxes to handle the extra power produced. I'd really like to know how you wired those 2-500's in the block. When I looked at the L1, L2, & L3 inputs on the block, it would barely take one 10 Guage wire. How did you fit 2 in there? I finally got my chips and programming cable from the Netherlands yesterday. Sadly enough, the cable is serial and my laptop only has USB. I plan to purchase an adapter. The other bummer is that you have to unmount and disassemble each extension box to program any change. I would have been better if the boxes had a socket to make programming easier. I may rig something up. I'll keep you posted. Lastly, would you try to attach your solar to the same SWEA system, or would you run it separate? Thanks, and good luck with the Mrs., BeachBum
I know what you mean on the port openings and for the L port that is designated for two incoming wires. ( my first thoughts REALLY) I do not have two 500's feeding my SWEA Inverters. I use all four inverters (1000 watt) with my Windy 750 and as I have said earlier the 750 produced more power than they could handle in a big wind. On your question if I would use them at the same time for solar. Only If I had an inverter left over would I use it for solar. It seems you have to always go one inverter over the recommended watts to cover the power surges. When time and finances allow I would like to follow up on your information with solar and inverters from that company you told me about in Florida.. What a difference in price compared to Canada. I still have a lot to learn or understand about the V a solar pannel will produce and the cut in of a grid tie.. I am going to bug Tom later to walk me through that one. You had a question about the SWEA cut in tuning. I talked to Marcel and this is what he sent to me. see below. I am home now so when time allows I will go ahead with the 5 blades on the Windy 500 thanks for the kind words for Mert. Pain is all gone now.
Murray, Sorry I haven't been on the forum. I too, have been busy. Marcel told me the SWEA settings for the Windy 500: Inverter 1: V-start 20 Volts / steepness 4.4 V/A Inverter 2: V-start 25 Volts / steepness 3.6 V/A Inverter 3: V-start 28 Volts / steepness 3.0 V/A Inverter 4: V-start 45 Volts / steepness 1.0 V/A (safety inverter) He claims that these are the original settings he put on your 4 boxes. I don't know how you would set it up any different if you were using 2 wind turbines at the same time, unless you added 2 more boxes at 32 & 36 Volts. Marcel told me you can use up to 6 boxes. I thought the limit was 4. Would you send me a closeup picture of the wiring going into the block? Hope this helps anyone else struggling to find the right settings. Hope Mert is better. BeachBum
Murray,You are hooked direct to the inverters and NOT using a battery as a voltage clamp? Why???? :?: :?:
Beach,, I think Marcel is getting my turbines mixed up.. my inverters are on my Windy 750. I will write to him and ask about this. I have four 250 watt inverters set on my 750.. He suggested that the fourth was probably an overkill. Well when ever I have had decent storm winds the 750 has put all four of the inverters into their braking mode due to too much power being produced. Unfortunately this is when you would really like to reap the benefits of those strong winds. It is not the amps, It must be exceeding the limits of the V's they can handle. ( 55 V ) The safety on the inverters and load box of the SWEA kicks the inverters off for a period of time during this braking and then they reset themselves and begin functioning again. I am really interested in the Windy furling tail to work with my 750 and allow constant power production during those storm periods. How the hell do you produce 750 watt plus and stay under 55 V ? I will take a photo of my wiring for you but not today, we are having 10 - 15 mph winds and I just don't want to be messing with any of the electrical. I agree with you on the suggestion of wiring in 6 inverter boxes. I will also check with Marcel on the wire size he is recommending at the box. Beach do you have any of your inverter boxes set up and running yet ? Have your winds been constant for you.? Our weather is upside down this year. When we normally have good 10 - 15 mph winds off the lake during the summer months we have experienced hot calm air and a great increase of tornados in the Province being sited. Mert has been transfered to a hospital only 100 km south of me now so I visit everyday. Thanks for the kind words, will tell her.
Bluejay Yes my Windy 750 feeds directly to the SWEA inverter setup. There product requires no battery as a relay or charge control. It first feeds to a diode box ( rectifier) then to an AP box at that point the DC power is distributed to the inverter boxes. Each inverter is tuned to control different levels of v power. There is also a dumpload wired in to all of this that when a maximum of amount of V are reached this dumpload will brake the turbine. If you read any of the write ups on inverters in the forum it may explain what is happening in more detail. In the inverter thread I also wrote about one inverter I set up with different battery banks after frying it (then getting a replacement) with a Windy 500. Hope some of this helps out. If not just keep asking.
Murray, If Volts X Amps = Watts then changing the steepness setting and/or adding two more boxes should take care of the problem. A good meter would help you determine that. SWEA gives me dealer price now. They sent me the programming software and the programming cables to set the steepness on the boxes. Frankly, I'm still learning this new setup. At this point it's still trial and some error. Let me know if you need any of their equipment. They sell to me much better than ebay prices. Go to www.swea.nl for product information. I have some extra #8 - 3 wire w/ground I was planning to use. I don't have my PMA up. The summer wind is flat right now. 0 - 5 mph and lots of bugs. As for Bluejay, this system does not require any batteries. You can plug your PMA to this box, and plug the box into an outlet. It feeds you house electrical system. I plan to use a dedicated 20 Amp GFI circuit. If you go to the SWEA site look for the "starter kit". You can purchase extra boxes that are stackable depending on the size of your PMA. Send me a private message, and I will share the dealer price I get with you if you like. I'm still learning the programming, but once I get it perfect on one Windy500 it should be the same for all. BeachBum
Hi Beach Good to hear you have the extra # 8 * 3 wire. that can be an expense. Bought once on Ebay then got smart for a change, now I buy directly from SWEA also . Too bad I did not know you wanted their software and cables, I had a few sets around somewhere, would have sent you one. Not that I know how to use the stuff, I am still using the settings they did for me. I don't think I would invest in anymore boxes to handle my 750.. Just doesn't jive when I already have 1000 watt of boxes to handle the 750 and then they are still shutting down in big winds. Either the 750 is very powerful in storms or SWEA is very weak in handling power. lol. You bet, I do need a meter to read what is up and what is down, would help me lots. If you have any ideas let me know. I asked Josh about the amp meter he was using in his test video. Do you think that would benefit me by being mobile and allowing me to use it on all my towers ? Good winds today, steady 12 to 15 mph. Are you going to go ahead with those solar units we were looking at ? murray
Murray, I sent you a reply on a different page about my multimeter. The Fluke brand is the best, but very expensive. The one I use has all the same features, but is one third the price. Regarding the SWEA unit, I think finding the correct steepness setting is the key. I'm trying to get that down now, but am not in the position to test setting changes (no wind). If you start playing with these settings, documents all the changes you make and their effect. I'll compare notes with you as I learn more. It kills me to hear that power gets wasted to the dump loads. As far as solar, I purchased a stackable 2500 inverter which has not arrived yet. I plan to purchase 8 Suntech panels (250-260 Watt) for a total of approximately 2kW solar. I plan to mount them on the ground on the south side of my house. I have a vacant lot there that's fenced in. It will be easier for me to get to the main house panel, instead of trying to do a roof mount on the third story. I let you know how it progresses, but I need to finish my wind turbine projects first. Have you started on any solar yet? BeachBum
